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phillyflyers

phillyflyers

Joined
Aug 8, 2024
Messages
2,296
The whole port industry will be automated in 10 years, dump these clowns & archaic concepts of FDR era labor.

Their union supported Biden, you pay the price. Families will starve, homes foreclosed. Elections have consequences.
Honestly, I don't know if I support that either.

Automation means loss of jobs.

People need to work.
 

MinnesotaFats

MinnesotaFats

Joined
Nov 1, 2021
Messages
3,448
Honestly, I don't know if I support that either.

Automation means loss of jobs.

People need to work.
People need to work for a market wage that a worker & employer agree upon.

3rd party influence, such as government interference or union representatives, dustort the market, and force the employer to seek a cheaper alternative. It's why we get such great gains like betting kiosks, app based ordering, at mcdonalds, Netflix and driverless Ubers.

The American worker's biggest enemy is the Democrat party, with 20 million illegals pressing labor wages down, it encourages government interference such as 'living wage laws', which only results in less employment & less jobs. (See California).

If you don't want to dig ditches and be broke at 50, then you need to embrace the management side of the argument and get educated, bet on yourself and create something that is desired or considered progressive by the marketplace, or the simple fact is, you'll be replaced.
 

phillyflyers

phillyflyers

Joined
Aug 8, 2024
Messages
2,296
People need to work for a market wage that a worker & employer agree upon.

3rd party influence, such as government interference or union representatives, dustort the market, and force the employer to seek a cheaper alternative. It's why we get such great gains like betting kiosks, app based ordering, at mcdonalds, Netflix and driverless Ubers.

The American worker's biggest enemy is the Democrat party, with 20 million illegals pressing labor wages down, it encourages government interference such as 'living wage laws', which only results in less employment & less jobs. (See California).

If you don't want to dig ditches and be broke at 50, then you need to embrace the management side of the argument and get educated, bet on yourself and create something that is desired or considered progressive by the marketplace, or the simple fact is, you'll be replaced.
I'm not arguing about the Democrats.

We all know they're the enemy within. That's more than obvious.

What I am arguing is that machines shouldn't replace humans en masse. If everything becomes automated where does that leave us?

Also, not everyone can be on the management side. The hard work labour jobs will always be needed. The question then becomes do they get reserved for people or machines?
 

MinnesotaFats

MinnesotaFats

Joined
Nov 1, 2021
Messages
3,448
I'm not arguing about the Democrats.

We all know they're the enemy within. That's more than obvious.

What I am arguing is that machines shouldn't replace humans en masse. If everything becomes automated where does that leave us?

Also, not everyone can be on the management side. The hard work labour jobs will always be needed. The question then becomes do they get reserved for people or machines?
Well, i mean history, even recent history, shows us what we do as a society. The USA is just too young as a Nation and had, fir many years, plenty of 'bounty' and was self sustaining agricultrrially based, but, if you crack open that history book, you'll see what governments eventually do to 'thin' the heard.

Since the days of the Vikings and Huns, thru the likes of Mao & Stalin to modern Rowandan & Yazidi, you just kill off the poor, homeless, weak & ill minded.

It'll happen here in another generation or two. They'll find some bacteria that only attaches to certain DNA & put it in the public water system, theyll force a vaccine that wind up killing an entire demographic, the govt will offer amnesty and or a pardon for service & send them to invade some Country only to get wiped out (like current Russia) or drop a small nuke in a few Urban centers, something to kill off 50 million quick.

This happens every couple of generations when a society runs out of social welfare. The poor act up, the monied put them down.
 

phillyflyers

phillyflyers

Joined
Aug 8, 2024
Messages
2,296
Well, i mean history, even recent history, shows us what we do as a society. The USA is just too young as a Nation and had, fir many years, plenty of 'bounty' and was self sustaining agricultrrially based, but, if you crack open that history book, you'll see what governments eventually do to 'thin' the heard.

Since the days of the Vikings and Huns, thru the likes of Mao & Stalin to modern Rowandan & Yazidi, you just kill off the poor, homeless, weak & ill minded.

It'll happen here in another generation or two. They'll find some bacteria that only attaches to certain DNA & put it in the public water system, theyll force a vaccine that wind up killing an entire demographic, the govt will offer amnesty and or a pardon for service & send them to invade some Country only to get wiped out (like current Russia) or drop a small nuke in a few Urban centers, something to kill off 50 million quick.

This happens every couple of generations when a society runs out of social welfare. The poor act up, the monied put them down.
Wow where to begin?

Well, in this country, we had both slave and child labour in our past.

The result of that was the poor acted up and we got laws passed prohibiting both of those practices. When the poor acted up again, we got unions and a Democrat party built on those people who had an eternal distrust of the rich, corporations, and banks.

I think World War 3 happens before anything else happens. Especially if Harris gets elected. Israel got bombarded today and God only knows what the response from them will be.

It will almost certainly lead to an escalation.

Trump really is our only hope out of this peacefully imo.
 

MinnesotaFats

MinnesotaFats

Joined
Nov 1, 2021
Messages
3,448
The issue with Trump, and this is a big issue, is that he's not a conservative.

The idea of America, was to keep power in the hands of the people & local, by limiting the Federal Government & its powers.

The Constitution explicitly limits Government in every ammendment & reverts all unmonitored power to the States.

Trump is a big government guy, who has chased away the intellectual & big business portion of the GOP with his proposed trade wars & MAGA nationalism rhetoric. I dont see him as a savior but more a band aid until a 3rd party can implement some long term solution to debt & social programs that are broken.

Now- it's true, the US had both slaves & child labor laws. But remember this was in a time that we had very little population, we needed productivity. And as mentioned before, automation was beginning to replace the slave labor by the early 1800s. Remember that chapter in the history book on Eli Whitney & his cotton gin? The problem that congress had wasn't ending slavery, that was already being phased out (1808 was last imported slave). The question was, do you pay the owners for the slave and if so, what do you do with millions of uneducated and broke freed slaves.

Enter Lincoln & the GOP. The United States only colony was called Liberia and it was established as a refuge to deport freed blacks to. About 35,000 freed blacks were relocated there by the time of Lincolns election, and his plan was to use federal money to pay plantations for their slaves and deport them, raising funds thru the Morell Tariff Act....except the Southern leaders had no interest in getting taxed on their outputs only to turn around and pay themselves, so they left the Union.

After the war, think about the depopulation that occurred, every remaining family had 8,9,10 kids, and by ww1 those kids had 8,9,10 kids as well....what do you do with so many kids when the family farm now has tractors, grist mills, self bagging operations & centralized collection/ instant pay outs at Co-Ops....well you send the most unproductive to the cities to make a few bucks by working for less sewing dresses or assembling cars or sealing roofs.

Now that effect was that it put older returning veterans out of work in the cities, who had families, and that spurred a decline in spending on what was a new idea of 'consumer packaged good', so government interferred and as usual the result was a disaster. Child labor laws went into effect, putting the kids back on the farm, and the Wagner act (FDR) took affect, allowing unionization in cities.

Farms suddenly had way more help than they needed, so they overfarmed, over produced and prices collapsed and so did US agricultural homestead values, enter the great depression....a government created disaster that would have resolved itself in 3 years, but FDR manipulated the Federal Government soas to get 3 elections before the war, and one more during.

Half the New Deal was declared unconstitutional, the other half Hoover had before congress in '31. And remember, the NYSE was under State jurisdiction in 1929, it wasn't Federal. Who was the governor of New York in '29? FDR.
 

Tanko

Tanko

Joined
Oct 27, 2021
Messages
42,513
I support unions but I think the ISL demands are a little too high.

They were offered 7.6% per year raises for 6 years. Thats almost a 50% increase in pay over 6 years.

But ISL wants 12.8% a year raises for 6 years. Thats a 77% increase over that period. Holy s#it! Who the hell turns down a 50% pay increase over 6 years? Then demands a 77% pay increase for the same period?

As someone mentioned, they also want to stop all future automation in these jobs. Wow! Thats gonna be a showstopper in negotiations.

How about instead of doing that, they demand job security where automation is allowed as the workforce retires. That would make more sense.
 

MinnesotaFats

MinnesotaFats

Joined
Nov 1, 2021
Messages
3,448
I'd suspect they realize this might be their last contract if job preservation isn't priority #1.

45,000 members today, probably 30,000 by 2030. At that point there's just not enough workers to fund their pension anymore and you'd see a dissolution of the Union, imagine if automation got that # below 20K in 10 years, their benefits would dry up overnight.
 

Tanko

Tanko

Joined
Oct 27, 2021
Messages
42,513
I'd suspect they realize this might be their last contract if job preservation isn't priority #1.

45,000 members today, probably 30,000 by 2030. At that point there's just not enough workers to fund their pension anymore and you'd see a dissolution of the Union, imagine if automation got that # below 20K in 10 years, their benefits would dry up overnight.
I don’t see how you stop the automation long-term.
Telephone operators
Cashiers
Data entry personnel
Bank Tellers.
Etc.

It’s going to happen. They should negotiate from a position of how to minimize the impact to employees while accepting its implementation and not just negotiate from a position of “We’ll stop it completely”.
 

phillyflyers

phillyflyers

Joined
Aug 8, 2024
Messages
2,296
The issue with Trump, and this is a big issue, is that he's not a conservative.

The idea of America, was to keep power in the hands of the people & local, by limiting the Federal Government & its powers.

The Constitution explicitly limits Government in every ammendment & reverts all unmonitored power to the States.

Trump is a big government guy, who has chased away the intellectual & big business portion of the GOP with his proposed trade wars & MAGA nationalism rhetoric. I dont see him as a savior but more a band aid until a 3rd party can implement some long term solution to debt & social programs that are broken.

Now- it's true, the US had both slaves & child labor laws. But remember this was in a time that we had very little population, we needed productivity. And as mentioned before, automation was beginning to replace the slave labor by the early 1800s. Remember that chapter in the history book on Eli Whitney & his cotton gin? The problem that congress had wasn't ending slavery, that was already being phased out (1808 was last imported slave). The question was, do you pay the owners for the slave and if so, what do you do with millions of uneducated and broke freed slaves.

Enter Lincoln & the GOP. The United States only colony was called Liberia and it was established as a refuge to deport freed blacks to. About 35,000 freed blacks were relocated there by the time of Lincolns election, and his plan was to use federal money to pay plantations for their slaves and deport them, raising funds thru the Morell Tariff Act....except the Southern leaders had no interest in getting taxed on their outputs only to turn around and pay themselves, so they left the Union.

After the war, think about the depopulation that occurred, every remaining family had 8,9,10 kids, and by ww1 those kids had 8,9,10 kids as well....what do you do with so many kids when the family farm now has tractors, grist mills, self bagging operations & centralized collection/ instant pay outs at Co-Ops....well you send the most unproductive to the cities to make a few bucks by working for less sewing dresses or assembling cars or sealing roofs.

Now that effect was that it put older returning veterans out of work in the cities, who had families, and that spurred a decline in spending on what was a new idea of 'consumer packaged good', so government interferred and as usual the result was a disaster. Child labor laws went into effect, putting the kids back on the farm, and the Wagner act (FDR) took affect, allowing unionization in cities.

Farms suddenly had way more help than they needed, so they overfarmed, over produced and prices collapsed and so did US agricultural homestead values, enter the great depression....a government created disaster that would have resolved itself in 3 years, but FDR manipulated the Federal Government soas to get 3 elections before the war, and one more during.

Half the New Deal was declared unconstitutional, the other half Hoover had before congress in '31. And remember, the NYSE was under State jurisdiction in 1929, it wasn't Federal. Who was the governor of New York in '29? FDR.
Disagree that Trump is a big government guy. He wants to eliminate entire departments of the federal government. He single handedly ended Roe v Wade and put in back in the hands of the states.

Did either Bush do this? No. Did Reagan? No.

He wanted to end Obamacare and was stopped by a leftist named John McCain.

Big business portion of the GOP left and supported Dems because they couldn't buy Trump.

That's why they hate him.

Lincoln was a piece of shit. A fukkin butcher who preferred to rip the country apart rather than let the South have an equal voice in the Union and respect States Rights.

The kind of scumbag who would take Irish immigrants just off the boat and enlist them in the Union army.

Banks caused the Great Depression combined with uncontrolled market speculation.

But why are we talking about this when the subject you brought up was the monied v the poor?
 

sharpsquare

sharpsquare

Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
2,506
I support unions but I think the ISL demands are a little too high.

They were offered 7.6% per year raises for 6 years. Thats almost a 50% increase in pay over 6 years.

But ISL wants 12.8% a year raises for 6 years. Thats a 77% increase over that period. Holy s#it! Who the hell turns down a 50% pay increase over 6 years? Then demands a 77% pay increase for the same period?

As someone mentioned, they also want to stop all future automation in these jobs. Wow! Thats gonna be a showstopper in negotiations.

How about instead of doing that, they demand job security where automation is allowed as the workforce retires. That would make more sense.

I think that is their high side of the negotiating process and they would certainly like to settle in the middle.

"How about instead of doing that, they demand job security where automation is allowed as the workforce retires. That would make more sense."

I also think that makes a lot of sense and hopefully they can get to something similar asap
 
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