Ohtani or Ruth?

[flyingillini]

Lets get this started here.

 

[flyingillini]

I'm going to put this out there, that the comparison between these two is absolutely pointless considering how much the game, and quite frankly, life has changed within the past 100 years.

In Ruth's era players worked second jobs, medicine was basic, there was barely anything resembling modern athletic training, and players traveled on sleeper cars. How the game was played was entirely different, and this is all before we even attempt to open up the can of worms that is the lack of integration of the game back then. We can only compare a player relative to his peers.

What makes Babe most impressive was his sheer domination that literally redefined the game. He hit 600 Homers before anyone hit 300. There were seasons where he literally out homered entire teams. He brought baseball into a completely new era, and single-handedly carried the popularity of the sport on his back.

If you wish to use modern statistics to compare Ruth, to everyone else in the history of the game, his domination still reigns supreme. Ruth is the all-time leader in OPS, OPS+, WAR, and Offensive WAR. He Led the league in OPS in 13 out of 14 seasons from 1918-1931. If we use a stat such as Weighted Runs Created Plus, which is an era adjusted statistic, that neutralizes park values he is the all time leader with a 194 wRC+. The fact that we're still talking about him almost 100 years after his retirement speaks volumes.

Ohtani is the superior athlete. Of course he is, that's common sense. Ohtani lives in 2025 and has access to modern training, facilities, nutrition, and recovery techniques. You cannot compare the two because life itself is so different. This comparison is apples to oranges. We just need to enjoy what we get to watch.

 

[BigJay]

 

[BigJay]

I'm going to put this out there, that the comparison between these two is absolutely pointless considering how much the game, and quite frankly, life has changed within the past 100 years.

In Ruth's era players worked second jobs, medicine was basic, there was barely anything resembling modern athletic training, and players traveled on sleeper cars. How the game was played was entirely different, and this is all before we even attempt to open up the can of worms that is the lack of integration of the game back then. We can only compare a player relative to his peers.

What makes Babe most impressive was his sheer domination that literally redefined the game. He hit 600 Homers before anyone hit 300. There were seasons where he literally out homered entire teams. He brought baseball into a completely new era, and single-handedly carried the popularity of the sport on his back.

If you wish to use modern statistics to compare Ruth, to everyone else in the history of the game, his domination still reigns supreme. Ruth is the all-time leader in OPS, OPS+, WAR, and Offensive WAR. He Led the league in OPS in 13 out of 14 seasons from 1918-1931. If we use a stat such as Weighted Runs Created Plus, which is an era adjusted statistic, that neutralizes park values he is the all time leader with a 194 wRC+. The fact that we're still talking about him almost 100 years after his retirement speaks volumes.

Ohtani is the superior athlete. Of course he is, that's common sense. Ohtani lives in 2025 and has access to modern training, facilities, nutrition, and recovery techniques. You cannot compare the two because life itself is so different. This comparison is apples to oranges. We just need to enjoy what we get to watch.

One of the most prolific long ball hitters in the era right before Ruth’s, Home Run Baker, had 96 career homers and a career high of 12 in a season.

He’s in the Hall of Fame.

That was also considered the dead ball era pre-1920s

 

[flyingillini]

One of the most prolific long ball hitters in the era right before Ruth’s, Home Run Baker, had 96 career homers and a career high of 12 in a season.

He’s in the Hall of Fame.

That was also considered the dead ball era pre-1920s

I am a Home Run Baker collector. Cap Anson was baseballs first star, I am a collector of him as well. But Frank Home Run Baker is one of my favorites to collect.

 

[flyingillini]

Comparing players across eras is unfair and logically untenable, but nevertheless a fun exercise.

Here's my counterargument:

Ruth was likely a genetic outlier, which allowed him to dominate as a hitter against "common men", for the entirety of his career.

Ohtani is playing in an era where every player is likely not only a genetic outlier in a global (and not just white American) gene pool, but also has access to modern medicine, diet and training. His stats relative to his era won't be as impressive as Ruth's, but that's because Ohtani's era is so much more competitive. It may well be much harder to have an OPS+ of 160 today than it is to have an OPS+ of 200 in Ruth's era because of the high percentage of common men playing major league baseball in Ruth's era versus the percentage of common men playing major league baseball today.

As for impact on the game, it's hard to tell. In Ruth's era, there were far fewer competing forms of professional sports entertainment, and far less access. Yes, Ruth boosted baseball's popularity in America at the time, but is that as impressive as what Ohtani has done for baseball's global popularity? In terms of number of incremental fans as a percentage of the global population, I wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani's impact on the game is bigger -- much bigger -- than Ruth's.

 

[BigJay]

I am a Home Run Baker collector. Cap Anson was baseballs first star, I am a collector of him as well. But Frank Home Run Baker is one of my favorites to collect.

Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner both excellent in that era

 

[charliebrown]

What did Ruth do worse than than make his interpretor take the fall

 

[flyingillini]

Then maybe we should be comparing Aaron Judge to Babe Ruth because he didn't have a problem putting up OPS+ 225, 215 and 210 seasons while Ohtani's best season is 187. Ohtani is not the best hitter in the game. He doesn't play defense. He is an average baseball runner despite his 50 steal season. The last season before the rules change he attempted 20 stolen bases and was thrown out 9 times. His extra bases taken percentage of 42.1% is definitely not like Mays' 63%. Ohtani's best pitching season was worse than either of Ruth's two full seasons of pitching.

Ohtani's argument for the greatest comes down to being really good at many things, but so are the arguments for Babe Ruth and Willie Mays who performed at a high level for ~20 years. When Ohtani has put in a similar amount of time is the only time to compare him to the greatest in the game. I heard these arguments for Albert Pujols and Mike Trout until their careers fell off a cliff. Now their 101 and 87 WAR doesn't seem so impressive and neither should Ohtani's 51.5.

 

[BobbyFK]

In my eyes, it’s somewhat hard to compare because you’re talking about two different eras of baseball altogether

 

[flyingillini]

In my eyes, it’s somewhat hard to compare because you’re talking about two different eras of baseball altogether

Read my responses for Christ sakes

 

[flyingillini]

He's a full time DH. Let Ohtani play the field everyday and put mileage on his body and see where his numbers go. Mays and Ruth easily.
Judge is a better hitter than Ohtani. A .282 lifetime average and people want to compare him to Ruth. No one was a better hitter than Ruth when he played.

 

[BigJay]

He's a full time DH. Let Ohtani play the field everyday and put mileage on his body and see where his numbers go. Mays and Ruth easily.
Judge is a better hitter than Ohtani. A .282 lifetime average and people want to compare him to Ruth. No one was a better hitter than Ruth when he played.

The fact we’re comparing people to Ruth 90 years after he played speaks volumes about the Babe’s prowess

 

[flyingillini]

Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner both excellent in that era

One of my speakers. I have a Frank Baker uncut too, 3 of them.

 

[flyingillini]

Well, Aaron Judge and Willie Mays never pitched. The debate assumes that elite pitching and elite hitting are such a rare combination that anyone who can do both for any appreciable period of time is a superior baseball player than a traditional five-tool position player (like Mays) or 3-4 tool player (like Judge), no matter how good those pure position players were. And the only two players to have elite pitching and elite hitting in their resumes are Ohtani and Ruth.

Ruth was basically a two-way player for 2 seasons, and that's probably being generous. Ruth seems to get more credit for being an elite pitcher and then becoming an elite hitter, with some overlap between the two. Ohtani is going to win 3 MVPs as a two-way player and 1 as a two-tool player in only 8 seasons.

Most fundamentally, in order to believe that Ruth is better than Ohtani, you'd have to believe that the level of competition in Ruth's era is even in the same ballpark as that today. And I just don't see that.

 

[flyingillini]

I would love to see players of today deal with the issues of the players of yesterday. Imagine if they had to work jobs in the off season. Buses and trains to games instead of planes. Players having to look for hotel accommodations on the black part of town and not being able to room with their white teammates. Oh, death threats too. 1 or 2 trainers to a team.
This is why i look at yesterday's greats the way I do. They were tough as nails where today a hangnail sidelines someone. Mantles' teammates wouldn't dare take an off day for a small injury after seeing what he went through just getting ready for a game.

 

[flyingillini]

Some people want to conclude the players they watch today are better and some want to conclude for nostalgia and the old-timers, but considering Ruth completely rewrote how the game was played and Ohtani has played 1,500 games less than him, this is an absurd comparison. Just let Ohtani be great and awesome and figure out where he ends when he's reasonably close to the end at least. The Ruth comparisons are not based in reality at this point in time. At least pick some modern guy who has played something approaching a full career to declare better than Ruth.

 

[flyingillini]

Ohtani may not even be the best player in the game today. Aaron Judge is a much better hitter, OPS+ 179 to OPS+ 160. Judge is a plus defender, Ohtani is a no defender. Ohtani's "not Cy Young quality" arm has been worth 16 WAR in 6 seasons. WAR is the only way to measure two completely different skill sets. Judge has been worth 8.8 WAR/162 games, Ohtani 8.2 WAR/162 games. Both elite players, but you can't say Ohtani is better.

 

[flyingillini]

Ohtani has unique skills but he is not the best pitcher in the league or the best hitter. There was nobody better than Ruth. He wasn’t the best pitcher in the league either but he was the supreme bat and the unanimous best player in the game.

We didn’t see a player even get close to Ruth’s elite bat until Bonds came along and he had to cheat to do it. Bonds was also a hitter Ohtani will never be.

Judge is a hitter Ohtani will never be either. It can’t be stressed enough how difficult it is to put up a 200 OPS+ season and Judge now has three of them. Ohtani has none.

 

[flyingillini]

Babe Ruth had a 3-0 record with a 1.80 ERA in his 29.2 consecutive scoreless innings in the World Series, a record that stood for 43 seasons. He pitched 29 2/3 consecutive scoreless innings, including 13 shutout innings in Game 2 of the 1916 World Series and a complete 9 innings in Game 1 of the 1918 World Series. He pitched 22 innings in the 1916 World Series, and pitched 7.1 innings in Game 2 of the 1918 World Series, which also included a shutout inning that extended his record to 29.2