“Justifiable” chargebacks - is there ever such a thing offshore ?

[djefferis]

Curious as to opinion of the forum on the topic.

Is there ever a point where the player is justified in charging back a deposit made offshore ? Especially when it’s common knowledge most books use processors and are not directly handling credit card deposits or feeling the immediate effect of a reversal.

Do you feel multiple chargebacks - regardless of the reasons - are evidence that a player is engaged in “fraudulent” activity and should be barred from playing at a book - even if they did not chargeback that book. Feel that a book would be justified voiding a deposit/wagers made by that player when caught and/or applying any confiscated winnings to the negative figure with a processor.

Just reading the “findings” of a certain mod at a formerly great forum that’s nosedived of late regarding a prominent book who is not an “approved” book here. To me the assertion that someone has MULTIPLE justified chargebacks recently - and some POSSIBLE fraudulent chargebacks is simply laughable. One - ok - I’ll ageee that’s not evidence of a pattern. 4+ - different story.

It’s like saying someone acted in self defense killing another - one time - absolutely. 2 - ok, but how are you constantly finding yourselves in these kill or be killed situations and what can you do to end the trend. By the time you’re on your 4th - you’re just a criminal making excuses. No way someone should have multiple chargebacks in a year and have a (former) industry watchdog DEFENDING their actions. Laughable to me reading the assessment of conduct here and suggesting the book did anything wrong tossing a scammer/confiscating funds from them.

I’ve been lucky to never have been burned of late - but sometimes you make your own luck. I also don’t deposit using credit cards and only risk what I’m willing to lose - even if I win on paper. You chase one too many huge bonus at every PPH you can find - it’s bound to happen. Charging back is bound to bite you in the ass in this industry.

 

[thefix]

He knew what he was doing, his wife getting mad at him for maxing out the credit card does not fall under justifiable.

There is no justifiable reason. Prob jammed all-in and lost, then tried to dispute the charge, multiple times...

 

[KVB]

If your book charged more on the card than the player tried to deposit, then you have a legit chargeback.

If the book refuses to honor a deal they made at deposit, one could consider a chargeback but there might be better ways.

Being a victim of fraud warrants a chargeback, but I feel as though a chargeback should be the method of last resort. Part of that is to avoid being put in position multiple times to incur multiple chargebacks.

Like Jeff says, standing your ground to shoot a man is one thing, but if you find it happening all the time, it might not be the other guy, it might just be you.

 

[djefferis]

If a book “overcharged” contact the book and show them - if they refuse to adjust - then maybe I get a dispute - but again only for the “overage” amount. That is not what we had here clearly.

Wife getting mad - I doubt it. This was 100% a case of a bonus hunting shot taker. Now some might say depositing at a no pay book (like oddsmaker) warrants a chargeback. But again - your only going to find out AFTER you played, won and likely had much more in winnings than the charged back amount. Winning 5k at a no pay book and then proceeding to deposit 5k elsewhere and charging back everything isn’t “justified” - it’s theft.

Fact is clowns like this cost everyone when they pull this crap offshore. Processing is a cost - and books pass that cost on. Further - the more this crap happens - the less books offer promos knowing this is a possible outcome.

Just pisses me off when someone comes on every forum crying they were “ripped off” - evidence comes out they were the actual cons and some mod makes excuses for them calling multiple chargebacks “justified” while admitting it’s possible there are others that could have been fraudulent. You can’t have it both ways - saying someone is an innocent criminal.

 

[thefix]

I was just joking about he wife thing, but I'm sure that has been the case in many a ghost story. What I always find funny is how fiercely random posters were defending him and attacking the book as if there is zero chance the person is a shot taker. That site may or may not have lost customers over this, and like you said that hurts all of us.

 

[djefferis]

Shot takers like this are annoying - but part of the business.

What’s annoying as shit is when “independent” people pretending to be “mediating” things come out with their axe to grind against a book whose not paying them anymore - and color the facts to make the player look somewhat credible.

Guaranteed if this were say DraftKings - the “findings” would have looked far different. But let a book stand up and refuse to payoff someone and suddenly it’s open season on them.

Same person constantly reporting how crooked Heritage is these days. I’ll be the first to admit Heritage has changed for the worse - but to suggest funds are at risk there or that the book is openly cheating players is absurd with no credible evidence. Just because a a CSR has a bit of an attitude or gets stuff wrong occasionally or the book no longer feels the need to accommodate every player as they are more selective in profitable players doesn’t mean they are at risk of failing.

We really need an independent oversight of books and mediation service. Too bad no one can get one together as it’s needed now more than ever to sort out the fake news from legit complaints.

 

[btcfan]

Honestly, shouldn't be any reason to use CC's now for deposits. I can't see a positive reason to be using a credit card to fund gaming transactions offshore. Crypto takes us back to the neteller days with easy of moving funds around. No reason to be sending extra KYC (CC) images to these shops.

To me, if you are using a CC at a borderline shop, keeping a chargeback in your back pocket, you are part of the problem. If you are going to take the shot, be ready to eat the loss, or play at shops that are more trustworthy. There are plenty available.

 

[djefferis]

Exactly - from both a book and customer perspective the cost of credit cards/p2p deposits is a major drain.

Of course as a book - there are certain players who for whatever reason will only deposit via credit cards (or services they can use them on). Saying crypto only is turning away money from these players - and as a whole they tend to be a highly profitable group.

Think about it - novice gamblers typically aren’t familiar with crypto and credit cards make it simple for them. So they use those methods.

Books like Bet105 are KYC free and crypto only. Personally I much prefer this no BS way of doing business and going forward will be giving preference to books that operate as such - but some bonuses are worth the hoops you have to jump through too.

 

[btcfan]

I get it....I have seen the shops that offer a 2 tier bonus, grab one with crypto (to try it, in other words, to get the novice players using it) and grab the CC bonus. And you are 100% correct...crypto takes a bit of getting used to and is completely different for most. Honestly, when you start winning consistently, crypto is the lifeblood of this. I cannot imagine only having wire transfers/other ways of moving funds around. Crypto and the occasional other way of pulling funds is huge.

And yes, if the vast majority of players lose, no problem eating CC costs to get those funds in, although there are a few good podcasts out there that talk about the sportsbook operation from their POV...transaction costs definitely eat into their fairly thin margins because of the frequency "novice" players want to move funds.

 

[BigJay]

Surprised books even take CC anymore

They were a necessity 8-10 years + ago in the first 15-20 years of online. Now no need for the risk on either side

 

[KVB]

Surprised books even take CC anymore

They were a necessity 8-10 years + ago in the first 15-20 years of online. Now no need for the risk on either side

Yeah, the Us Treasury can only do so much to offshore, but they can make it hell for the credit card processors.

That was their original angle of attack when they banned offshore betting.

 

[BigJay]

I remember all those crazy charges from China where we ate a 10 percent fee or more. Good times

 

[KVB]

Good stuff but nothing matches sending Western Unions to Costa Rica or wherever with whatever random name the book gave.

I'd show up and be like "I'd like to send $500 to Consuelo Martina Gonzales please."

Then the next day I show up again and send $500 to Luciana Rodriguez.

 

[thefix]

Good stuff but nothing matches sending Western Unions to Costa Rica or wherever with whatever random name the book gave.

I'd show up and be like "I'd like to send $500 to Consuelo Martina Gonzales please."

Then the next day I show up again and send $500 to Luciana Rodriguez.

Spent more time in Wal-Mart picking those up than I've ever done actually shopping.

 

[djefferis]

Sending WU/MG was such a joy.

Some smartass assistant manager at WalMart asking why are you sending cash to Nicaragua so often - had several excuses ready - it’s my wife’s mother, I’m an importer/exporter of coffee - cigars or whatever or saying it’s for the church - I’m sending money to orphans.

Actually took a 2nd job for a while at a grocery store. They stuck me at the customer service desk for a while - that was fun. No hassle with sending multiple wires a day offshore and when a bunch of college kids started coming in looking to send cash - I’d “intercept” them and make referrals to other books or locals - asking what kind of deal they were promised and getting them a better deal.

Eventually HR at the grocery store determined it wasn’t a good idea to have a store clerk who was connected to offshore gambling. Oh the irony in that one that eventually became known.

But yea - Walmart eventually drove me to use payday loan places and shady ethic markets that didn’t give a shit who/what I was doing.

 

[BigJay]

Sending WU/MG was such a joy.

Some smartass assistant manager at WalMart asking why are you sending cash to Nicaragua so often - had several excuses ready - it’s my wife’s mother, I’m an importer/exporter of coffee - cigars or whatever or saying it’s for the church - I’m sending money to orphans.

Actually took a 2nd job for a while at a grocery store. They stuck me at the customer service desk for a while - that was fun. No hassle with sending multiple wires a day offshore and when a bunch of college kids started coming in looking to send cash - I’d “intercept” them and make referrals to other books or locals - asking what kind of deal they were promised and getting them a better deal.

Eventually HR at the grocery store determined it wasn’t a good idea to have a store clerk who was connected to offshore gambling. Oh the irony in that one that eventually became known.

But yea - Walmart eventually drove me to use payday loan places and shady ethic markets that didn’t give a shit who/what I was doing.

You sound like a lifer like many of us here

 

[btcfan]

Sending WU/MG was such a joy.

Some smartass assistant manager at WalMart asking why are you sending cash to Nicaragua so often - had several excuses ready - it’s my wife’s mother, I’m an importer/exporter of coffee - cigars or whatever or saying it’s for the church - I’m sending money to orphans.

Actually took a 2nd job for a while at a grocery store. They stuck me at the customer service desk for a while - that was fun. No hassle with sending multiple wires a day offshore and when a bunch of college kids started coming in looking to send cash - I’d “intercept” them and make referrals to other books or locals - asking what kind of deal they were promised and getting them a better deal.

Eventually HR at the grocery store determined it wasn’t a good idea to have a store clerk who was connected to offshore gambling. Oh the irony in that one that eventually became known.

But yea - Walmart eventually drove me to use payday loan places and shady ethic markets that didn’t give a shit who/what I was doing.

That is fantastic! Working the CS counter to make referrals. I love it!

 

[JDS]

Curious as to opinion of the forum on the topic.

Is there ever a point where the player is justified in charging back a deposit made offshore ? Especially when it’s common knowledge most books use processors and are not directly handling credit card deposits or feeling the immediate effect of a reversal.

Do you feel multiple chargebacks - regardless of the reasons - are evidence that a player is engaged in “fraudulent” activity and should be barred from playing at a book - even if they did not chargeback that book. Feel that a book would be justified voiding a deposit/wagers made by that player when caught and/or applying any confiscated winnings to the negative figure with a processor.

Just reading the “findings” of a certain mod at a formerly great forum that’s nosedived of late regarding a prominent book who is not an “approved” book here. To me the assertion that someone has MULTIPLE justified chargebacks recently - and some POSSIBLE fraudulent chargebacks is simply laughable. One - ok - I’ll ageee that’s not evidence of a pattern. 4+ - different story.

It’s like saying someone acted in self defense killing another - one time - absolutely. 2 - ok, but how are you constantly finding yourselves in these kill or be killed situations and what can you do to end the trend. By the time you’re on your 4th - you’re just a criminal making excuses. No way someone should have multiple chargebacks in a year and have a (former) industry watchdog DEFENDING their actions. Laughable to me reading the assessment of conduct here and suggesting the book did anything wrong tossing a scammer/confiscating funds from them.

I’ve been lucky to never have been burned of late - but sometimes you make your own luck. I also don’t deposit using credit cards and only risk what I’m willing to lose - even if I win on paper. You chase one too many huge bonus at every PPH you can find - it’s bound to happen. Charging back is bound to bite you in the ass in this industry.

I’ve told this story before and I’ll tell it again. Back in 2002-2004 I played with Sportsbook.com & their sister site Linesmaker.com. Both sites I took bonuses at separate times for multiple deposits each account. All good until I wanted to get paid from a 18K parlay ticket that I won.

Mind you they had around 15K of my money in the time frame. They claimed I abused their bonus policy which they had nothing in writing to suggest that. Just a made up rule to justify a non-payment. SBR’s own Bill Dozer represented me with my issue to no avail.

The reason I bring up this story, is because I was at least able to “charge back” up to 10K in deposits over a period of time successfully due to clear fraud on their part. All these transactions were done by a credit card, which was the easiest way to transfer money +20 years ago.

 

[JDS]

Spent more time in Wal-Mart picking those up than I've ever done actually shopping.

Never went there for deposits though huh just cashouts ? You seem to always talk about your winning, and always after the fact. I challenge you to start posting some of your winning picks. Show us what you really got. Maybe some of us can make some money off it.

 

[keithrichard]

Never went there for deposits though huh just cashouts ? You seem to always talk about your winning, and always after the fact. I challenge you to start posting some of your winning picks. Show us what you really got. Maybe some of us can make some money off it.

I may be wrong but I suspect he may have not have been picking those up for himself.